I’m Not Gay Bashing, I’m Just a Coward: Oklahoma’s Sally Kerns Caught on Tape

Seems like everyone’s been talking about Oklahoma State Representative Sally Kerns and her little tirade against homosexuality. Kerns believed she was speaking to a small group of like-minded supporters, but when the audio got leaked, she instantly became a national embarrassment:

Kerns has complained that her remarks are edited and taken out of context:

I am totally against hate speech. Always have been and always will be. What you heard on YouTube was from a talk I gave on the aggressive movement to fund homosexuals and pro-homosexual candidates across the country and here in Oklahoma now that an openly homosexual is running for a statewide seat. The account given on YouTube took my words out of context and omitted other parts stringing certain words together to make it appear I was engaging in hate speech. I was not and would never do such a thing. The YouTube account is a blatant misrepresentation of my talk.

Now, the remarks clearly do seem to be edited, but as far as I can tell, edited mostly to highlight hateful, ridiculous claim after claim rather than to substantively distort her remarks. It’s quite clear from the video, rather than disguised, that she is railing against “homosexual candidates”: what she doesn’t seem to understand is that this is precisely what people find to be hateful in the first place. Notice also that she doesn’t actually give any examples of things that were distorted or taken out of context. And then there’s the usual “I didn’t say that… I stand by what I said” two-step:

I said nothing that wasn’t true. The homosexual agenda is real, the movement is aggressive, and it is a very real threat to the sacred institution of marriage and the traditional family unit. They are actively seeking to remove conservatives from the political arena. My talk was to a Republican group and I was speaking about the homosexual agenda to defeat conservative Republicans. They want to silence anyone who does not approve their lifestyle. They want their freedom but don’t want those who disagree to have their freedom.

Notice how supporting this or that candidate is all of a sudden an attempt to “silence” people or deny them their freedom. Again, no actual examples are given as to how anyone is silenced or denied any of their freedom. Meanwhile, this is the very woman trying to censor any books from school libraries that mention gay people in a positive light. As with the Intelligent Design film Expelled!, talking about “freedom of speech” here is simply an attempt to change the subject: restating that someone has the right to say something is not an answer to the question of whether you agree with it or support it, or whether it has merit. The fact that someone is free to speak does not mean that voting them out of office is silencing their views. It’s judging them and responding to them.

But what’s truly pathetic is the way she tries to hide behind her religion in excusing her opinions in her media responses. The fact that someone believes that their bigotry is endorsed by a holy text doesn’t make you one iota less morally responsible for holding those views. People who believe that they are acting under orders do not suddenly become blameless for carrying them out, and certainly not with the sort of passion this woman demonstrates. The Bible doesn’t contain any of the psuedo-scientific nonsense she peddles about gay life-expectancy: that stuff was actively made up and promoted by activists trying to demean and attack gay people.

If you’re going to hate on gays, fine. But the fact that you think you have God on your side is irrelevant to whether or not you deserve condemnation, nor does it magically transform your bigotry into “facts.”

Update: Ed Brayton at Dispatches posts a powerful statement from one of the victims of Oklahoma City bombings speaking out against Kerns’ bigotry.  One obvious quibble with it is that McVeigh was not in any demonstrable sense a Christian extremist motivated by religion, as the author seems to imply.  But other than that, it’s really a quite brilliant and very appropriate response.

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44 Responses to I’m Not Gay Bashing, I’m Just a Coward: Oklahoma’s Sally Kerns Caught on Tape

  1. Thanks for an incredible post. I never would have seen the video otherwise.

  2. Check out the comments from the people here in Oklahoma…..
    http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0308/502412_interact.html

  3. This lady, using the term loosely, is a complete, IDIOT. Thank God, she never taught any of my kids. Such a “bigot”. God have Mercy on her Soul. I am 73 years old, straight woman, but I would never “bash” a person or persons, such as she did. I would be ashamed to even be connected to her Family, she is surely a disgrace to human mankind. In my 73 years, I have never seen a cruel or mean gay person. They are always so gentle, kind, forgiving and yes, loving. And you know what LADY, they are one of God’s children. I don’t care what excuses you make for what you said, but you not only need a tongue lashing, but you need an attitude adjustment. I am certain, if I were your Mother, I would hide my head in disgrace. Did your Mama, bring you up to be such a hateful person. And to compare homosexuality to terroist is just plain stupid. Man did you show your ignorance and true colors. You have no business in being in our Government. I may not be the smartest person on this earth, but at least I have compassion for people of the Human race. However, I don’t think that you even deserve that title. I don’t think that there is a word in the dictionary that would describe you. I would like to shake you till your teeth fall out. What a hateful way of thinking. Lord, I hope that you are still not teaching.

  4. You know what lady, what goes round, comes round, and I am sure you will get yours, if not here on earth, you will in Hell, not in Heaven, that is for sure. At least you will be company for the Devil, since you must be one of his relatives.

  5. Well, gay doesn´t mean obey!

  6. Oscionsus says:

    Dear people,

    This subject matter is the most disputed subject in your country. This legislator voices her understanding of the laws of nature as best she is able to convey them succinctly.
    She makes it clear that she is not attempting to bash homosexuals. However her language sounds coarse to some people. What we have here is a fundamental difference in comprehension. Many of you who are troubled by Kerns’ comments are feeling condemned. She is readily establishing the fact that the Creator, Jehovah, God, Elohim, Yahweh, I Am, God the Father himself established in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible a union between man and woman and that any deviation from such would lead to eternal death.

    One cannot fault her for recognizing one particular sin that is especially deviant in God’s eyes. It appears that she might perhaps be worried that our nation’s willingness to accept homosexuality as an alternate lifestyle may in fact cause America to be handed over to death as it was in the days of Atlantis, Sodom, and Gomorrah. In all cases, the evil that men could not perceive amongst themselves had become so widespread, that they were all killed in a sudden and violent manner by the Angel of Death whose job it was to welcome those guilty of such egregious sin into the portal of Hell. Terrifying subject matter to be sure, yet historically, very true.

    It is interesting to note that in most major world religions, the original texts all teach the avoidance of homosexuality in the same text as avoidance of beastiality.

    Universal truth brings us all into unity with respect to this one concept.
    We are spirit. We are soul. We are body. These three mirror the trinity that has brought us all to this time and place. No person can condemn another person’s lifestyle for they too are guilty of sin. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Through the release of “self” and the realization that humanity is weak and will never be perfect, one can therefore abandon himself and relase himself into the arms of the One who knows no sin.

    The spirits whose real names are Kindness, Gentleness, Forgiveness, and Love are there to serve all of you….the hater and the hated. Feel no anger and place no blame. For as much as you all suffer against the forces of the darkness whose home IS the earth, understand and have compassion toward those whose plight is greater than your own. If you are among the hated, return the hate you feel with sympathy and love for the pesron who is unaware that they are being hurtful.

    Come to the fountain overflowing with radiant kindness and selflessness and consume as much as you require to become whole again. Jesus Christ himself owns the fountain and ALL are welcome! For there is no castigation or accusation or ridicule in the mind of Jesus. Many of you have been dissuaded by the incorrect teachings fostered by the religious zealots of this day. Many of you feel that Jesus is the enemy that should be avoided. Jesus is really the opposite of many of the things you see today from so-called Chrstians.

    To those of you who have ever felt accused or blamed or harmed by souls who proclaim Christianity, know THIS. Jesus came to give life and give it MORE abundantly. There is no fear in Christ. It is He who is the originator and the author of life. LIFE as we know it never was until HE who is whole made it so.

    We all are one in the unity of the universe. All people are interconnected, and from this connectedness there is no separation of any two things…. save for Life and for Death. They are the two forces at work in our universe.

    To those who wish to choose life, choose it and it shall be yours.
    Choose to follow your soul which is infected with the disease of sin, and you must die.
    Death may be wholly and completely avoided by the renouncement of all things harmful to us, and the acceptance of the spirit who created Life.

    He who created death is one who hates life, love health, and wellness. therefore I would imagine that none of you want death.

    In the end, people, do not trust mankind. Man is filled with error. You whose errors in life are so aptly pointed out to you by some are no more dead in sin than the religious person whose pre-occupation it is to condemn and persecute you! I assure you that you all are in sin. So what are we to make of this?

    If all people are evil, being guilty of mistakes, poor judgement and sin, how are we to gain Life? By dying.
    Let the “old self” die. Accept in the deepest recesses of your own heart the power that is already within you. Accept the gift who had revisited you time and time again. It’s in your conscience, it’s in your mind, it’s in your heart. It is forgiveness from the One who wrote the essence of the universe.
    No matter how many religions there are, no matter how evil you may be, you can’t be too evil to live again! One stands ready to receive you into His celestial arms and lift you up and present you to the universe as “the victor”. With your trophy and crown in His hands, you are crowned the winner of Life because you trusted Him who cannot be seen, but only believed. Your faith has made you whole.
    All the Love of God pours out from the highest dimension into your being. You made it!

    And to whom do we extend our heartfelt gratitude for saving our life?
    The man who we misunderstood…… the “underdog”…… the man that garnered everyone’s attention…….his name is Jesus of Nazareth, and he made the way for all humanity to live. He reminds us today that he came not to bring peace, but rather a sword! To cut off the wicked and separate them from those who run to the refuge and sanctuary of hope and love, There will always be bad in the world, and while we can’t always stop those evildoers who seek to do harm to themselves and others, we can choose Life by accepting the gift. Therefore we live completely in peace in ourselves.

  7. Glazius says:

    Oscionsus Says:

    Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.

  8. oppresed half-breed says:

    Why is gay-bashing wrong and bashing of us half-breeds okay?

  9. oppresed half-breed says:

    Also, homosexuality is not genetic while your race is.

  10. Bad says:

    Sorry Oscionsus, but at least around here, you don’t get to slink out of you moral responsibilities by saying “oh but I believe God said it.” Either you are willing to defend something morally or you aren’t. Deferring judgment to whatever you think God told you in a book doesn’t let you off the hook, not in the least.

    And the idea that she wasn’t gay bashing is ridiculous. She says plenty of over the top nonsense that isn’t any less nonsense even if you believe her religion.

  11. oppressed half-breed says:

    I know flat out god did not say this, but homos hate Asians and that’s why I dislike them.

  12. oppressed half-breed says:

    That’s why I dislike homos cuz I am AZn!

  13. Bad says:

    I think gay asians would disagree with the first statement, and I think Asians in general would disagree with the logic of the second: your hertiage is not to blame for what you dislike.

  14. oppressed half-breed says:

    Yeah? If homos don’t hate Asians why was there:
    The Chinese Exclusion Act
    Why do Asians:
    Get all the bad stereotypes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_East_and_Southeast_Asians
    You don’t think homos and their minions run some of the media? Consider the fact that some companies in the media support homos, and movies like Brokeback Mountain have come out. Just like how abortionists are conspiring against blacks, and Affirmative Action conspires against whites, homosexuals are conspiring against Asians.
    I know that some Asians are homo supporters. They are either self-hating Asians, or homos themselves. If you don’t get what self-hating is, here’s an example of a self-hating Jew: That guy who said that said Jews were “b*****ds” when his mom is a Jew. Or perhaps, a Jew who supports the Palestinians or the Holocaust.
    Or consider the fact that being gay is okay while being half-Asian half-not Asian is not? Why is it okay to marry the same sex but not the other race?

  15. Ideaman says:

    Good question. I never find the same sex attractive, but I do sometimes find other races attractive…

  16. Bad says:

    Or consider the fact that being gay is okay while being half-Asian half-not Asian is not?

    How is that a “fact.” Or even a common idea? I know lots of people of mixed Asian ancestry. I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s a problem.

    Why is it okay to marry the same sex but not the other race?

    What the heck are you talking about? At least in every country I’m aware of, it’s a far far bigger cultural and especially legal problem for the former than for the latter.

    You’re barely being coherent here, and perhaps, just putting us all on.

  17. oppressed half-breed says:

    Okay, consider this:
    When a homosexual is dealing with problem people, it’s called gay-bashing. When a mixed person is dealing with problem people, no one really cares.

  18. oppressed half-breed says:

    Also, you never talked about how Asians get bad stereotypes, and that seems to be acceptable. Also I am under the impression that if homos got those stereotypes it would be called gay-bashing.

  19. oppressed half-breed says:

    Also, what about the fact that gangs kill each other over race in LA and Watts and no one does anything about it but everything is done to help the homos? Also when folks say negative things about mixed people, that’s considered okay, but when gay MARRIAGE is criticized, that’s considered a problem.

  20. The Truth says:

    “but when gay MARRIAGE is criticized, that’s considered a problem.”
    Interesting. You know, the Bible condemns homosexual acts but it doesn’t say that “God abhors fags.” Basically, if homosexuals remain celibate they have done nothing wrong, funny as it sounds.

  21. oppressed half-breed says:

    “In my 73 years, I have never seen a cruel or mean gay person.”
    Give me a break! I have!
    “All the Love of God pours out from the highest dimension into your being. You made it!”
    Wonderful. Will the Love of God help increase tolerance for intermarriage?
    “Many of you feel that Jesus is the enemy that should be avoided. Jesus is really the opposite of many of the things you see today from so-called Chrstians.”
    Maybe, but what about the actions of homosexuals? I.e. intolerance of intermarriage, giving Asians the bad stereotypes, and the Holocaust? Read Elie Wiesel’s memoir Night, and you will find that trafficking children among homosexuals was an accepted practice among Nazis. Of course, not all Nazis were gay, but the fact homosexuality was prominent…

  22. oppressed half-breed says:

    “I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s a problem.”
    Finally liberals who tolerate us…

  23. Ideaman says:

    “You’re barely being coherent here, and perhaps, just putting us all on.”
    He would have to think he’s encountered some sort of racism. Look at his name.

  24. Bad says:

    He’s being sort of ridiculous. No one has suggested here that mixed-race ancestry is any sort of problem whatsoever. And no one disagrees that stereotypes are bad things. None of this has anything to do with justifying gay-bashing,

    And good grief: the Nazis put thousands of homosexuals TO DEATH. They were one of the earliest groups targeted.

    Frankly, the nastiest things I’ve ever heard said about Asians or people of mixed Asian descent are themselves Asian (of a different country or nationality than the people they are smearing).

  25. Ideaman says:

    They may have done that to some, but I’ve heard Jews say that Nazis were homosexuals, Ernst Rohm was homosexual (they did kill him but that was because he was too powerful), and there was a trafficking of children among homosexuals during the Nazi period.

  26. oppressed half-breed says:

    “No one has suggested here that mixed-race ancestry is any sort of problem whatsoever.”
    Maybe, but consider this: I have gotten smeared for it, and it was considered okay. But smear a homosexual and you are considered a gay-basher.
    “Frankly, the nastiest things I’ve ever heard said about Asians or people of mixed Asian descent are themselves Asian (of a different country or nationality than the people they are smearing).”
    The Japanese were against Asians other than themselves in the same way the Nazis were against whites other than themselves in WW2, and a few hostilities remain. But not all Japanese are like that. Also sometimes Chinese are viewed in some parts of Southeast Asia the same way Jews were in Medieval Europe.

  27. oppressed half-breed says:

    I’m not saying it’s okay for Asians to smear each other, but that’s basically why it happens.

  28. Ideaman says:

    Perhaps homosexuals were persecuted because they were suspected Ernst Rohm supporters and not on the basis of their sexuality.

  29. Ideaman says:

    I mean, quite frankly, I don’t see any other reason why Hitler, who despised Jews and Christians would persecute homosexuals. There are Jews and Christians opposed to homosexual acts. (Not necessarily homosexuals, if they are celibate or choose being faithful in a marriage to a member of the opposite sex, that is not a sin.)

  30. Bad says:

    Maybe, but consider this: I have gotten smeared for it, and it was considered okay.

    Uh, by who? And how is this relevant to anything?

    But smear a homosexual and you are considered a gay-basher.

    Yes, and you should be considered a gay basher. So?

    I mean, quite frankly, I don’t see any other reason why Hitler, who despised Jews and Christians would persecute homosexuals.

    Hitler despised Jews, but he and the Nazis considered themselves a Christian movement, at least for the bulk of their reign. Towards the end, Hitler and some of his top partners in crime decided that Christian churches were in their way to absolute power, but he never gave up the general prejudices that he ascribed to Christianity.

    And honestly, you don’t see any reason why he would persecute homosexuals? That’s just sort of, uh, weird.

  31. Ideaman says:

    Why does my comment with all the Hitler quotes calling Christianity an invention of the Jews keep getting discarded?

  32. oppressed half-breed says:

    “Uh, by who?”
    People who supported the gay agenda.

  33. Ideaman (trying comment again) says:

    Check out these Hitler quotes:
    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

    “National Socialism and religion cannot exist together….
    “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity….
    “Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.” (p 6 & 7)

    14th October, 1941, midday

    “The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity….
    “Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse….
    “…the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little….
    “Christianity the liar….
    “We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State.” (p 49-52)

    homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

    19th October, 1941, night

    “The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.”
    The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity … The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.

    I’ll make these ****ed parsons feel the power of the state in a way they would have never believed possible. For the moment, I am just keeping my eye upon them: if I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them. This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is a sign of weakness in the State, and therefore it must be stamped on. We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented by the Jews.
    [Quoted from Hitler’s “Table Talks” with Bormann,
    in Hitler: A Study in Tyranny by Allan Bullock.]

    infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/sn-hitler.html

  34. The Truth says:

    “he never gave up the general prejudices that he ascribed to Christianity.’
    Er…if I hear correctly, it’s agreed that Hitler hated Jews, Slavs, and Gypsies. It’s debated whether he hates homosexuals.
    Christianity doesn’t hate Jews. While it’s true some Christians consider Jews to be Christ-killers, they miss important facts concerning Christianity:
    1. Jesus and his disciples were Jews.
    2. The Bible says that Christians are all equals and united in Christ: Gal. 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
    3. Jesus appeared to Jewish women when he rose from the dead.
    4. Jesus rose from the dead. (According to Christianity).
    5. Jesus died because of sin, and everyone sinned. Therefore everyone killed Jesus (in a sense.)
    6. Jesus came to die and rise from the dead.
    7. The romans were also involved in the crucification; they nailed him to the cross.
    As for Hitler’s other prejudices, Christianity doesn’t mention Slavs or Gypsies.
    As for homosexuals, the rule is no homosexual acts, not no homosexuals. Exodus 18:22“ ‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

  35. Ideaman says:

    “And honestly, you don’t see any reason why he would persecute homosexuals?”
    I don’t thin he believed gay was a sin, judging by the way he acted he didn’t believe anything was a sin. So why would he hate homosexuals? There’s no reason. People are racist for no reason.

  36. Duh! says:

    being gay is not a bad thing. I’m not gay but do respect people who are. this is like rasicm there will always be people against gays but hopefully nearly everyone will learn to acept gays

  37. Bad says:

    Hitler was not racist for “no reason.” He gave reasons. Including the reason that Jews were detestable Christ killers. In fact, Nazi propaganda featured pictures of Jews killing Christ with messages saying that the German people should not forget!

    You try to defend Christianity from this idea, but that’s not the point at all. All that matters here is what Hitler thought and justified his actions with, and his understanding of Christianity was indeed a major player in this, whether his understanding of Christianity was theologically right or wrong, and regardless of how his ideas about Christianity developed later (Ideaman for some reason thinks a valid picture of Hitler the Nazis consists only of later claims, ignoring all the contradicting ones that celebrate Christianity)

    And I still don’t get people’s bizarre belief that he didn’t or hadn’t any reason to hate homosexuals. Homosexuals were put in camps and put to death in Nazi Germany. The Nazis had all sorts of rationales for why they were as bad as any other suspect group: they were called deviants, did not fit in with Christian social ideals that the Nazis claimed to embody, and so on. In fact, it’s worse in their case: at least when the allies liberated Nazi Germany, they let Jews and gypsies and so forth out of the camps. Many homosexuals were basically made to stay there.

  38. The Truth says:

    Er…that’s all a lie. If they were so concerned about Christian social ideals, why did they commit so much murder, which goes against Christian ideals?
    “Ideaman for some reason thinks a valid picture of Hitler the Nazis consists only of later claims, ignoring all the contradicting ones that celebrate Christianity”
    I think that was all an act to gain power, and what are these contradicting quotes?
    “his understanding of Christianity was indeed a major player in this”
    In one way you are right, in one way you are wrong. He did pretend to be Christian to gain power, but he was not a Christian, but considered Christianity to be a fairy story invented by the Jews.
    “did not fit in with Christian social ideals that the Nazis claimed to embody”
    I don’t really think they cared for Christianity at all. Those who were not homosexual were promiscuous.
    “when the allies liberated Nazi Germany, they let Jews and gypsies and so forth out of the camps”
    Sadly, that seems to be what modern “Fundamentalist” Christians would do if they were in the positions of the allies.
    “You try to defend Christianity from this idea, but that’s not the point at all. All that matters here is what Hitler thought and justified his actions with,”
    I think that callin Nazis Christians was a lie invented by those who hate Christianity. He may have taken Bible verses out of context, detracting from their meaning, and used it to justify his actions, but the truth is that Christianity condemns murder

  39. Ideaman says:

    “Hitler was not racist for “no reason.” He gave reasons. Including the reason that Jews were detestable Christ killers. In fact, Nazi propaganda featured pictures of Jews killing Christ with messages saying that the German people should not forget!”
    Wow, do you just plain hate Christians? I never heard that one before. Besides, you seem to have ignored the fact that Nazism goes against Christianity.
    “You try to defend Christianity from this idea, but that’s not the point at all.”
    First off, there’s nothing wrong with defending Christianity. If atheists can defend themselves from Josef Cain Stalin and Mao the Dung and Kim Jung mentally Il, Muslims can defend themselves from Osatan Bin Laden then we can certainly defend ourselves from Ahabite Christian anti-Semites and explain that Nazis were in no way part of us.
    “All that matters here is what Hitler thought and justified his actions with, and his understanding of Christianity was indeed a major player in this”
    Maybe he did, but like the Truth said, he was taking verses out of context if he did. Also, I doubt that atheists would care if atheism was used to justify Hitler’s actions.
    “whether his understanding of Christianity was theologically right or wrong”
    I don’t think he could be in any way Christian, because he either did not believe Christianity at all or didn’t understand it.
    “(Ideaman for some reason thinks a valid picture of Hitler the Nazis consists only of later claims, ignoring all the contradicting ones that celebrate Christianity)”
    Hmm, does he have any claims that celebrate Christianity? And perhaps he said them before he was the evil, insane man who ordered so many murders of Jews, as well as Christians who sheltered Jews, as well as Slavs, Gypsies, French Christians, British Christians, Serbian Christians, Polish Christians, and American Christians.
    “And I still don’t get people’s bizarre belief that he didn’t or hadn’t any reason to hate homosexuals. Homosexuals were put in camps and put to death in Nazi Germany.”
    Yes, but because of their sexuality, or because they were suspected Ernst Rohm supporters?
    “In fact, it’s worse in their case: at least when the allies liberated Nazi Germany, they let Jews and gypsies and so forth out of the camps. Many homosexuals were basically made to stay there.”
    That’s what real Christians as opposed to the Nazi pretenders would do, and that’s because homosexual acts (but not homosexuality itself) are considered a crime in Christian theology. I’m not justifying it though, as Christ also preached forgiveness.

  40. Bad says:

    Er…that’s all a lie. If they were so concerned about Christian social ideals, why did they commit so much murder, which goes against Christian ideals?

    Goes against what YOU might think those ideals are, perhaps.

    And again, you’re welcome to argue that there is some “true” Christianity that the Nazis distorted and mangled. I won’t disagree with you, even though it isn’t clear to me, nor does it matter, what the “true” version would be. But arguing that the Nazis did not see themselves as good Christians, let alone were not influenced by Christianity, is just absurd.

    Look

    I think that was all an act to gain power, and what are these contradicting quotes?

    I noted one here. Again, it’s possible that some Nazis played at Christianity to gain power, though it’s clear that many were sincere, and Hitler was at least at the beginning.

    None of that changes the fact that Christianity, as understood by the people of that time, was a key influence in Nazi Germany.

    Seriously: just get a copy of On the Jews and their Lies by no less than Martin Luther and try to tell me that there’s no connection. Or read through Mein Kampf and see exactly what it is that Hitler sees himself and his ideals as being based on.

    Again, you’re missing the point if you think I’m trying to pin the Holocaust on Christianity. Christians today do not believe what Nazi Christians believed, and are not responsible for it. But the idea that Christian attitudes towards homosexuals played no role is just silly.

    Yes, but because of their sexuality, or because they were suspected Ernst Rohm supporters?

    Because of their sexuality. The idea that homosexuals were all Rohm supporters, or that homosexuals were persecuted just as some sort of ongoing neverending vendetta against Rohm is pure nonsense.

    That’s what real Christians as opposed to the Nazi pretenders would do, and that’s because homosexual acts (but not homosexuality itself) are considered a crime in Christian theology. I’m not justifying it though, as Christ also preached forgiveness.

    Are you justifying it or not? Are the people who exacted so much pointless and untold suffering on homosexuals “real” Christians, or not?

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